UWyo Spotlight
UWyo Spotlight introduces you to the people who make the University of Wyoming special, as well as those who bring their expertise to UW. We’ll share their stories, explore the work they’re doing and discover why it matters to Wyoming and beyond.
The University of Wyoming is a remarkable place where students, faculty, staff and people from across Wyoming are making an impact on our state.
UWyo Spotlight
Serving the State
President Reeves invites Wyoming Governor Mark Gordon into the studio for a discussion about education across Wyoming and how the University of Wyoming can be an economic driver within the state and beyond.
Follow Governor Gordon:
www.facebook.com/governormarkgordon
Intro by UW President Shane Reeves
SPEAKER_00Hello and welcome to UWYO Spotlight, a podcast from the University of Wyoming. I'm Shane Reeves and I'm honored to serve as president of this great university. One of the things I want to do with this podcast is introduce you to some of the people who are helping shape the future of the University of Wyoming and the state we serve. Sometimes those people are right here on campus. Sometimes they're researchers or students or alumni. And sometimes they're people who spend a great deal of their time thinking about Wyoming as a whole. My guest today certainly falls to that last category. For nearly eight years, Mark Gordon has served as Wyoming's governor. He's been our state's chief executive through a lot of changes. Economic changes, political changes, technological changes, and of course, a pandemic that none of us had on our calendars. And he has spent a great deal of time thinking about what Wyoming needs to do to remain strong, prosperous, and independent. Governor, welcome to
Welcome Governor Mark Gordon
SPEAKER_00UWYO Spotlight. It's wonderful to be here.
SPEAKER_01And I hope we talk about each other as Shane and Mark, not governor and president. Sounds good to me. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00So it's great to have you here, and we really appreciate you taking the time uh to to come over to Laramie and have this conversation. Now, I have to say there's an unusual family connection between, I'd say, the two of us. Uh I'm not sure
The General Patton Connection
SPEAKER_00a lot of people know this about you, but your great uncle was General George S. Patton. Is that true? That is true. And I spent a pretty good chunk of my time at West Point where General Patton was a graduate and also had some time at West Point and knows West Point. Did you know his son-in-law was the Commandant of Cadets at West Point?
SPEAKER_01I did not. I did not. I knew his son well. I did not meet George uh blood and guts. He had died before I was born. But uh his son actually served in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.
SPEAKER_00His son was the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment commander, I think, in Vietnam, which is a unit I had served in. So that was quite interesting. Now, uh here is my favorite quote. Do you have a favorite quote of General Pattenson? A few. Yeah. So here's my favorite one. Uh never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do, and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. I like it for two reasons. One, it's the only one I could find without a curse word in it. And number two, it's about independence of thought and action. Do you have a favorite quote of his?
SPEAKER_01No, that one is actually one of them. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Do you have another one?
SPEAKER_01It's a funny story. My dad uh drove an ambulance during World War II, and he pulled into a uh a fuel depot, and uh uh he was gassing up, and and along came the staff car. George jumped out, talked to my dad for a little bit, uh, saluted him and said, get the hell back to work. And my dad had said I was standing there with my hands in my pockets, and when he drove off, everybody, who is this kid who doesn't even salute the general?
SPEAKER_00You're like, that's my dad. Is probably what he was, yeah, right at the time. Um I think
What Does Wyoming Expect From Its Leadership?
SPEAKER_00that's a great connection for us to start this conversation with. Um, because this conversation is really about leadership. And I think we'd all agree that General Patton is one of those seminal leaders that uh people look back on in history. And when I think about leadership, I want to connect it to Wyoming and really what Wyoming expects uh from their leaders, from their institutions, and what the people want out of us. So let's let's start there. And so let me just ask you this question. So you've had almost eight years as the governor, and before that, you served as the state treasurer. First off, I'd say thank you for all that service. I'm not sure people fully understand how much effort goes into public service. But you've had clearly a chance to travel all over Wyoming and you've met with people from all the various seclectic communities that make up our state. And those could be ranchers, energy workers, teachers, students, et cetera. When you when you think about Wyoming today, what do you believe people expect from their leaders?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think they want their leaders to be, I guess, strong conservatives. They want to make sure that we're good with money. Uh I think they don't want people telling them what to do, kind of coming back to that famous quote. I think they expect them to stand up to the federal government. And in fact, I do believe we send people to Washington that we believe are gonna fight to make sure that we keep the state uh free of federal interference, and we're gonna have governors that do a really good job running things. I think they want their state institutions to be ones that respect uh local control.
Looking Back on Wyoming's Revenue
SPEAKER_01Has that changed at all over your eight years as as governor? I I think it has stayed the same primarily. There's been a a bit of a change, I think, um, and and it's interesting to me as a student of history. Uh back in 1917 with the flu epidemic and then looking at the COVID epidemic, it it really is interesting because the um the the way the population responded was was pretty much the same. A couple of months, like we'll pay attention to what government's saying, and after that, this is just not working. We're we're gonna go back to our own to our own affairs. But but I do think that what is clear to me today, and what has changed a little bit, but I think it had changed kind of before I became governor, was we were built from people who saw a future, saw opportunity, and were gonna make something out of that. And then we we did well with uh mineral development. We've done this uh the the uh mineral severance tax and other uh things that built our you know our endowment pretty substantially. And then we kind of got complacent and it sort of changed to I want mine. I'm not building for the future, but I want mine. I I think we're back in that mode of we can't just rest on our laurels. We have to build something.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell It's interesting you say that. Uh as a as a kid who grew up in Wyoming, I always felt there was a uh a self-reliance and confidence amongst people. And uh and that willingness to to look forward, to try new things, as long as it was within the structure that we would expect, as you pointed out, freedom of action, ability to make independent decisions without some sort of uh bureaucratic um overreach. And as you stated, that sometimes or it seems that maybe people have got a bit complacent. Do you think that was driven by the pandemic, or was it or is it driven by actually maybe uh the abundance of of resources that that's yeah, I think it it it it comes about uh memories are somewhat short.
SPEAKER_01And I remember voting for the for the permanent mineral trust fund. Uh I I remember uh a few years after that we went into the 1980s, the price of oil dropped. Uh, really went through a difficult time here in Wyoming. The 90s were a little bit better, but not much better. And I always tell this story that periodically Wyoming runs out of money. And uh in the 1960s, Minnie Mitchell told the governor, look, we've got 80 bucks in the in the in the account, um, need to do something about that, led to the mineral severance tax and the permanent trust fund. Uh in in the 1980s, um, you know, it was really dire and we were losing businesses. 1990s, uh, we could not have balanced the state budget if it hadn't been for somebody dying and leaving money to the state. But after that, we kind of got our ducks in a row. And we managed, with the help of fossil fuels, coal primarily, to weather the 2008 collapse of the stock market better than anyone else. And we were very conservative. Since that time, we've made some changes. Um, I had a hand in some of them. Uh Senator Lumis had her hand in some of it as well. But we we now are at a place where so much of our revenue is made from our investments over time. That's, of course, money that people don't have to spend and taxes. And and and I think they've become uh there there was this sort of expectation that things were going to be taken care of uh for us by the State because of our mineral resources. And I think that's a dangerous place for us to be right now. Uh we, of course, and this institution has really led the way with making sure that all of our traditional energy sources are still relevant and important for the future, as sometimes administrations forget that. But but at the same time, there's a personal responsibility that we have to have for our schools and other things. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00And that's a great segue uh into the University of
What Does Wyoming Expect From Its University?
SPEAKER_00Wyoming. Uh what do you think the people of the state want out of their university?
SPEAKER_01Yesterday, I I think you gave a wonderful talk about the state of the university, and you talked uh a lot about how important it is to have a strong athletic program. Um as much as I uh am reluctant to say you lead with that, I think that is important. I think I think people want to make sure that the cowboys, cowgirls are are really strong and and represent the state well. They look to the university to be an economic driver. Um we we have traditional industry here, uh, agriculture, energy, the these are all strong, strong departments in in the University of Wyoming. And I think they really people want to see that. Um but most importantly, I think they want to make sure the kids that go here come out with the kind of cultural values that are so important to Wyoming, that independence, that uh, you know, strength of character. Um and and it at this uh time in our I guess in our national culture, you know, we sort of pendulum between we're gonna be more uh careful and thoughtful about everybody's feelings and you know, to heck with that, we're that's all woke, we don't want to deal with that. And somehow I think people expect uh the folks that go to this institution and the kids that come out of Wyoming to be independent, strong, resourceful, um, and able to make up their own minds, which doesn't mean you're anti-woke and it doesn't mean you're woke. It just means you're Wyoming.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Do you pragmatically uh think the the the people of the State of Wyoming are thinking about the university providing the future workforce for the state, or is it more philosophical what they what they think the university should do?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Yeah, no, I think it's a it's a combination of both. I think it's really important that we try to um do the best we can to educate the workforce. Uh and and there's a lot of conversation at sort of political levels about what that means. Um, is it is it important to have, and I think you and I have talked about this before, is it important to have a university education uh or or is it more important that you learn how to be a welder or an electrician or a plumber? Um and and my argument is really all of those things. Um if we don't have the judgment that comes from a liberal arts education, we're we're really kind of flying a little bit blind. Um there's a concern about value. Um so so you heard in the legislature a lot of talk about we need to just make sure we educate kids in the things that are important to Wyoming, meaning agriculture, um, you know, manual labor, carpentry, all of those sorts of things. Um and and and I what I sort of pull back from that political discussion to the broader population, I think there is a general view that we've got to rework education. That it is as much as we'd like to hold things back, and maybe we can talk a little bit about that, um, the world is changing. We want we want people to be relevant. Most importantly, we want our kids to be here. Uh and and and that's obviously in a really interesting conversation, because if you grow up in a little town like I did, KC, um, there's a big wide world out there, and at a certain point you want to see all that. And my kids did too. But but now they all love coming back and and and realizing what there is here. Uh and so I think there's sort of wandering a little bit on this, but I think that the people of wanting want to make sure that our kids are well educated, that they're able to enter the workforce confidently and be able to deal with whatever comes that way. But they also want to make sure that they uh they stay home, that they have a sense of uh belonging here in Wyoming.
SPEAKER_00You know, as the governor, you you also have mentioned that you look at the university as I I put it as the intellectual engine for for some of the economic opportunities in the state. But you you also look at the university as a place that can help facilitate economic development across across our state. Is that true?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I I work for an amazing man, um Raymond Planck, and he started the Eucharist Foundation, uh, um, you know, became one of the best artists in residence program. His whole point is I want I want my oil field workers, artists from places like New York or Paris or wherever that might be, and cowboys to sit down at a table at the night and and have an evening meal and and just talk. Um, you know, why are you doing the art you do? What is it you do in the oil field? We can be informed by that. And he felt very strongly, as I as I agree, that that it is so really important that the university be an economic driver, that it lead in so many ways on the economic diversification that comes from having a great institution. Um I I would marry that too with my my uh father-in-law, um senior staff sergeant, uh who uh who felt really strong. Ten kids grew up a depression era, lost their home, was a hobo, ended up in the Navy, the Army, the Air Force, you know, ten kids, all of whom put themselves through university. His belief, as I think that whole generation, was a good, strong education is your economic future.
SPEAKER_00I've heard that said to me that there's only a few things that can never be taken away from you. One of them is your integrity, you have to give that up, and the other one is education. It's an investment that you make, and that's going to be with you forever, regardless of what happens. And that will help you see the world in a particular way. It'll help make you a better citizen, but it also will give you some economic opportunities.
UW's Report Card From the Governor's Perspective
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What what do you think the university is doing, let's say, particularly well right now?
SPEAKER_01What I would say the university is doing particularly well right now is it is leading in the energy in the energy space, uh remarkably so. It's done a phenomenal job with uh understanding what happens with really technical aspects of fracking. I think it's done a really amazing job of talking about really leading edge kinds of technologies to do with carbon capture, et cetera, et cetera. That's all phenomenal. Um people don't often realize what a great zoology program we have here. Uh and and and being able to marry those two things, I think, is is is a real opportunity. I think we've got some cutting-edge research in wildlife. Uh and and I've really enjoyed talking with Kelly Crane, Dean of the School of AG, about the unique place that Wyoming can take, which is we do a better job of managing sort of the the whole of our uh natural resources as opposed to animal husbandry versus you know agronomics or something else.
Educational Initiatives
SPEAKER_01We do a great job of saying you're gonna be a complete agriculturalist if you come to this school. But I'm really proud of what the work that we have done with the School of Education here in really talking about what is it that Wyoming can do uniquely that other systems can't do as well. We're small, we're nimble, um, it takes courage. Uh we need to put the pieces in place to for people to take risks and then measure those risks and find out if they're worth it or not. Uh and I I talk about the RIDE initiative where, you know, we've got schools that are doing unique things all over all over the state. Uh one uh in in Upton, where they've they've designed the K-12 system that with small schools, as you probably know, um Rock Spring is a little bigger than KC, but you know, a lot of times we don't have enough teachers. So if you're gonna do, let's say, band, maybe that means it interferes with geometry. Well, Upton said nonsense. We we're gonna make sure that our teachers are available for the students when they have the time to take that course, and we're gonna be with them. And that's sort of gone into a magical place where if you're really engaged with science, now instead of you've got a half hour to get it done or 45 minutes, you you can take three hours if you can schedule it that way. And that school is doing it. Other schools have done other things where, you know, Cody, for example, the PE teacher, the um the English teacher and the science teacher take the kids out on the river. They help game and fish tag fish. They sit around at night around the campfire and they talk about the books they're reading, and they have to write in a journal, and that journal gets graded. These are not sorts of things you see in ordinary classrooms. And it takes a lot of courage to be able to say, okay, fine, you guys did all this stuff. How are we going to measure it? How do we know if it's working? And that's where this Department of Education, this School of Education, has done a remarkable job of kind of assisting, helping, and helping to lead that transformation.
SPEAKER_00My gosh, as you were talking about that, I'm like, I wanted to go to that school growing up. I want to I want to go out on the river and hang out and sit around a campfire and talk books instead of sit at a desk for 45 minutes and try to memorize things off of a off of a chalkboard when all of your energy wants you just to go out for recess, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And what was really getting me is that you have these kids, my kids included, who uh were board stiff as seniors because you know they had to sit in the classroom, the teacher had to teach the class, you had to do this certain thing. And and now with what we've done with internships and apprenticeships, you know, you can actually get out and start working. Um it it takes courage to do this. But you're right. I think that the and that you know, I I spoke a little bit about it yesterday. Having kids engaged with the passion of learning, what better way to build lifelong learners?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, couldn't agree more. Now let me ask you the more difficult question. What and this is this is informative for me as the new president, and
What UW Could Do Better
SPEAKER_00uh, as I've gotten around the university, I have the people are amazing. The faculty are amazing, the students are amazing. But what could we be doing better? Well, any organization that's a good organization's introspective looks at itself and and tries to iterate on how it can improve. So what what could we do better?
SPEAKER_01Well well, Shane, I I think this is a magical first step uh in in so many ways, because what I hear sort of as criticism of the university is is it reflective of Wyoming? Is it reflective of you know uh Manderson, Wyoming, or or you know, Burlington? Is it reflective of of uh um Kemmer? And I think the ability for you to engage with podcasts like this, maybe other teachers to be able to engage, um, is really good. You and I both know that that sort of higher education at this point has come under a lot of scrutiny. And and there's a lot of criticism, probably some of it deserves, some of it just kind of the flavor of the month, uh that, you know, universities are are gonna teach you all liberal ideas and you're you're you know, it's a waste of time, it's not gonna help you with employment or anything else. And I think we should all listen to that criticism, but at the same time, I think the university has done a great job of engaging with people, which is, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit, I think, about the funding. I think when we had that group that came to the legislature and said we're gonna defund the university, it's too liberal, it's not showing what's going on in Wyoming. Wyoming rose up and contacted all of those legislators, ultimately restored most of the budget, uh, and then ultimately said, if you didn't like the university, well, maybe you're not the person we want in the legislature.
SPEAKER_00Let me ask you about
2026 Legislative Session
SPEAKER_00that legislative session. Uh it it really was um an interesting juxtaposition between the uh a perspective on the future of Wyoming and maybe a regressive view on Wyoming. And the university got into the middle of that to some extent. And you and did you point out there's been an erosion in trust in higher education nationally? Do you think part of that national conversation started to inform local opinions about the University of Wyoming? Or or were those criticisms uh had kernels of truth that that made people lose some of the trust in the university?
SPEAKER_01No, I think it did inform very much the conversation. At the same time, I think it's always good to listen to criticism, not take offense to it, really try to understand what the origins of it are. Um and and to realize why maybe some of it's a bit misplaced. Um doesn't mean it's not valuable, but it it it may not reflect what's happening here at the university. I I'll give you an example. I know we're um, you know, kind of wandering around, but I'm I'm always fascinated my daughter came here and get her master's work. Uh and and after that she did quite well and was given the opportunity to look at a number of different institutions. Um she said, I want to go to a a land grant university because they're the ones that actually do the research. It's not so much posturing and pondering the big topics. It's it's what what actually is happening on the ground. And she was asked to take a delegation up to uh Pinedale uh to sort of interview the ranchers, and the people had said to her, um, because you know I've been in ranching all my life, we've really tried very hard to do great things with the ranch, uh, and I really look forward to what the you know opportunities laying in front of us are now. So she sort of grew up with that. Uh but but they were saying, well, we're gonna go up to the upper green uh and we're gonna tell ranchers how they can run their operations much better, which will yield more water, which is gonna be really important because the Colorado River is is starting to dry up. And and B said, well, have have you talked to uh the University of Wyoming or God forbid CSU? Uh because they have the research. And and they were like, oh no, no, no, honey, we we we're we're Stanford, we're Yale, we're Harvard, we're all these great institutions. We don't we don't need that. Um and and she said it was kind of funny because about halfway through the tour, people were going, these guys are really smart. These ranchers know we can't figure out what to do to help them.
SPEAKER_00Well, you've mentioned this about ranchers in the past, right? That the one of the things that's so interesting to you is the uh the intellectual uh diversity you have to have to be someone who works the land, right? And how you have to have an understanding of so many different things that it actually pushes you not just physically but also intellectually. When you think about that legislative session, at the end of the day, the the legislature ultimately um did not cut the university's budget, uh, which which is was an indication of what to you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think it was an indication of a couple of things. One is it's easy as a politician to um to just say, we're gonna cut this. Uh we've all heard that. It's gonna be waste, fraud, and abuse. We're gonna we're gonna hollow out the waste, fraud, and abuse, and that's gonna save us all lots of money. I also think it was a reflection of the fact that people didn't understand how important this institution was to Wyoming. Um and and I think they were kind of shocked by that. Then lastly, I don't think they had a plan. Their plan really didn't understand the strength. I'm gonna sort of kind of go a little bit off off the university at this point. But but Wyoming has a unique system. The university is really clearly the research, the center, the intellectual sort of hub of so much of this, which doesn't mean that we can be, you know, um too proud of ourselves. There is some humility that we've got to have. But but but we also have these community colleges that that can meet so many of the needs. And and I think that when people started talking about recipes for correcting higher education, they completely forgot that we have a system that can help educate high school kids, that can adapt to people as their job changes or as new technology comes on, that can as they as they decide from going from a career running a welding truck to maybe owning a company that builds stuff. I don't think they fully understood the strengths of our system writ large. And so ultimately at the end, they were unable to put forward a compelling reason to do what they were thinking of. And the people of Wyoming came and said, look, our university is good. It does need to think a little bit more about how it can fit into Wyoming. Maybe it's been sort of wandering a little bit in the national conversation. Maybe we should be focused a little bit more on Wyoming. These are all things I kind of took away from that discussion. But at the end of the day, we love our institution.
SPEAKER_00It's not a binary, either I support or don't support it. It's like we can do better, but I still support it. And I think maybe that's where some of those in the legislature didn't quite realize that that complexity of thinking is very normal to someone from Wyoming. Yeah. Yeah. And and I and I wonder, uh, you said they were a bit shocked maybe by the response. Uh one of the things that has jumped out of me since I've since I've uh been in this job is this is the University of Wyoming has over 60,000 living alums in the state. Yeah, it's got to be the greatest concentration of alum in a in a state that I can think of, in a state with 580 something thousand people. Oh, sure. And they have a really strong passion about the university. And so I think the message may have been misheard. The mishearing may have been we don't like the institution versus we can we want it to we want it to continue to accelerate and and be excellent, but we still support it.
SPEAKER_01You think that's about uh Yeah, no, I think that's I think that's a good point. And I I don't think people understood what an achievement it was to become an R1 institution. Yes, sir. Yeah. Those areas of research that are particularly important to Wyoming are getting the kind of emphasis they need. There's always been this discussion, which I think is a good one, but but I I'd probably look at it a little bit differently. There's always like, well, we're a great value. Yeah, you know, so we're we're just we're the we're the um the value chain of of universities versus you know this is an excellent institution.
SPEAKER_00Last question in this in the in this area. Do you think this this last year where this debate was taking place amongst our elected leaders was more about the budget or is it about the future?
SPEAKER_01I think it was a largely about the budget. And I um I I've really tried to emphasize the future. To me, and I think you and I have talked about this in the past, one of the this is an incredibly exciting time to be in Wyoming. Absolutely. You know, what what are the things that we need most now? We we need energy. We've got every form of energy there is. We also have really bright minds that can do incredible things to make sure we do that efficiently. We need knowledge and nimble policy. There's no place that can do this. I mean, you look at our legislature, some of the things that they've been able to do with digital assets, with um, you know, this sort of emerging economy are remarkable. And the and the university's been right in the middle of that. And then you you think about where that leads us, we can either say those are people in Washington who are going to make those choices, or, you know, right here we can demonstrate what the future should look like. And the example I'd give you is that, you know, TerraPower chose Wyoming to build the first commercial nuclear reactor.
SPEAKER_00As you were saying that, I was thinking,
Building Something Better
SPEAKER_00if this is this about building something better for the state of Wyoming, or is it circling the wagons and protecting what we have? And I think what we heard is let's build something better, and the university needs to be part of that. Any organization, including the state, doesn't want to have a single point of failure. Because you don't want to be over-reliant. And you can see that you can look at there's a plethora of examples from upstate New York to the Midwest, when the when an when uh the economy shifts and the technology changes, if you've gotten over-reliant on a particular industry, you're in trouble. And so this economic diversity amongst the inside the state you're describing, I think is a really healthy foundation for uh economic stability for uh the citizens.
Data Centers and AI
SPEAKER_00You mentioned data centers. Obviously, this is a topic that is blowing up all over this country. There is states that are putting hiatus on building them. It seems to have uh passed across political parties. There seems to be discussions about whether are data centers gonna take up all of our water? Do we have the electricity for them? They're taking up space. I've been very open in my thoughts about artificial intelligence being the future, and I need to uh embrace that. And you can, uh as General Patton would say, you can lead or get out of the way. Uh and I think that's one of these situations that if you aren't leading, you're gonna be left behind. But where do you fall out when you think about data centers and all the complex, you know, the complexity of the arguments surrounding them?
SPEAKER_01Well, at the end of the day, and having grown up on a ranch, and I think most people in Wyoming who grew up here, I'm sure you are the same way, um, there's a problem, confront it, figure it out, try to figure out how to solve it. Uh and and and don't just run away from challenge. Uh so for me, it it's very much this is a concern. You know, water, take for water, for example, obviously brushes resource for us. What can we do to minimize water use? Uh and and and now we have an engineering question that we can that we can fix. And this School of Engineering can be a big part of that. You you you talk about electricity rates. Well, that's a regulatory structure. And you you look at nationwide, we have a regulatory structure that was built during the the 20th century. Um and and and now we have all these new forms of energy. Why don't we generate more of it close to home? That's good for security, that's good for the environment. Lots of things that we can do better, but maybe our regulatory structure needs to be revamped to deal with that. So we if you're worried about rate changes, well, let's solve for that problem. Um, you know, if you're worried about workforce, how do we make sure that people that come into the into the state maybe share our values? That's a that's a thing that we can that we can work on. Um and and as far as siting goes, it's that's that's something we should do. That's something that we should be very thoughtful about. We can move these uh in places where they aren't quite so bad. And people talk about noise. Another engineering problem. Um and and now you can find cooling fans that are almost less than what we're talking now, but move huge volumes of air. So to me, it presents a challenge and an opportunity. And when I think they're gonna use the resource that we have in abundance of, and that can help fund the state with our permit Minimal Trust Fund, and that gives back many generations in the future, that's good. Uh, if we can do it in a way that that uh minimizes our use of of water and actually reduces rates for uh ratepayers uh and increases our national security. I'm not seeing what's wrong with this. Now I know and I think there's even a term that's been coined, I think it's called moral panic or something, where you know we we as as a nation, I guess it's not new. I mean, it's it's you know, we suddenly get really concerned about something, and and and so, you know, everything is reacting to that without necessarily understanding it or the complications or how to deal with it. And and and we're we're a people that are susceptible to that, but I think we should be a people that are much more interested in understanding. I think that's what a university's role is. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00Maybe these are complicated problems, but we as an as a university for the univers for the state of Wyoming should be able to help work through these problems and solve these problems. And I think we can. As you know, many of them are engineering related. Some of them may be the the maybe people don't understand all the facts. And that's something else we can do. We can let's let's have a discussion about the pros and cons. Do you think it when you think about data centers, is it is it about data centers or is it more fear about moving into the age of AI?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think it's I think it's the latter. I what was it? Uh I I I think my chief of staff says something along the lines of Drew Perkins, uh, that the only thing that people hate more than the way things are is change. Right. And uh and and I think there is a fear of that. I've I've been having a good discussion with a teacher that I respect the heck out of in uh Buffalo. Um and she's quite concerned about AI and what it can do to the classroom and how kids are are gonna react to it. I I share those concerns. Um but I think you said just the other day that clearly two people equally well educated, one with AI and one without, the one with AI is is gonna do better. I think the challenge for education now is this this is coming. It's hard to put that genie back in the model. You know, I did the Wyoming Way um data centers, the Wyoming Way executive order, and a lot of the responses we got back were generated by AI. It's pretty obvious, you know. And and so people I think are going to use it. And I I to me that's one of the things that's really remarkably exciting about this time. You know, when we got the automobile, there was a whole bunch of concern about that. And then, you know, when we got the nuclear bomb, a whole bunch of concern about that, and rightly so. But we've learned to live with those aspects of our society. And I think the challenge for us is how do we design an education system that that equips our students uh to be great citizens, as you point out, uh, and to be able to be um uh uh judicious about and and judgmental about how it's used and what it is able to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's such an interesting question because I've heard uh some people mention hey, this is like we have an education system right now constructed for the industrial revolution, and we are now in our own industrial revolution, and it's hard to understand when you're living in something as um transformational as a complete change in how we we do things and when you're living in it. I've also uh heard uh or read in a book called The Age of AI, uh it was written by Henry Kissinger and Eric Schmidt and uh professor from MIT, and they basically argue that we've moved from the age of enlightenment to the age of AI, which it's no longer about the transmission of information, but now it's about the application of information. And it's just difficult for us to put all that together in our head, but we have to do that. And we can if we're if we're willing to be bold uh and to and to look at it as an opportunity and to approach it from a creative lens versus maybe out of and fear is all fears fear's okay. It's just that we can't let it trap us into looking backwards. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01I 100% agree. One of the um, you know, when we did the Ride initiative, um it was with some of the people who also went on to do the WIP initiative, but one of them made a, I thought a really prophetic statement, um, which which was, and this was right in the middle, a little bit before AI had really hit its its surge, um, but it was in that discussion about you'd do better as a plumber than you would as a um, you know, English uh lit major or whatever. Um and his point is we're not building robots, what we're doing is trying to educate humans. Uh and and I I've I've thought about that because to your point, uh th this is new technology uh and and the implications of it the reverberations are gonna be generations down the road. And I think it's incumbent on us to at least start to think about that. Not in terms of we can't do it because that's not gonna happen particularly
Governor's Proudest Achievement: Educational initiatives
SPEAKER_01successfully. But we we can do it in a way that's that's meaningful, thoughtful, and and leads to better things.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell Not often do I get to have a governor on the spot who's coming to the end of his second term. And so I wanna I want to ask you this question. You're on your final lap here. Uh what is the the single thing you're most proud of that you've accomplished over your time as the governor?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell I feel perhaps strongest about education. Uh and and the reason is because that's sort of a gift that keeps giving back over time. I I've been really happy with what we've done diversifying the economy. I I've been really happy uh with with what we've done to to advance uh really some of our most important industries. But but when it comes down to what what do you think has the most lasting impact, uh it is the fact that we were able to open up some stuff for education. But but I also feel that that's that hopefully I just started it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um you know, it's that wonderful George Washington, maybe apocryphal quote where I didn't fight George the Fourth to become George the First.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well now,
A Network of Community Colleges
SPEAKER_00what when you came into office, you I'm sure you had your priorities, you had a vision, and you were gonna you're gonna effectuate that vision. What did you find more difficult than you could have expected to accomplish in in your time as uh as our chief executive?
SPEAKER_01Most difficult was the the WIP initiative. And and for listeners, um this was the idea that we would get the university and the community colleges all on the same song sheet, uh, and we would engage with industry to make sure that the offerings that we had were gonna be valuable to the companies that were here. So that presumably you could go through your education system here, whatever level it was, and have a ready place to get hired. Uh and and and more importantly, the partnership would mean that as that industry changed or evolved, you had a partnership with an institution uh that that could that could you know continue to work with the industry and grow. That that has that's flowered, it's now privately funded, it it it's going a long way. Um but it was like pulling teeth to get uh all of our institutions on the same page. And I will forever be grateful to Ed, uh, the former president, because um Ed was brand new, just like you are, uh, and gullible, I suppose. I said I said Edward. I said, we're we're gonna go to every one of our community colleges and we're gonna sit down and talk about how the University of Wyoming can work better with our community colleges. I did not expect our community college, because they've all been complaining about, well, we it's too hard for our graduates to get the university, things we need to work on. Um, but I didn't expect them to sort of become turtles and it's like, well, wait a minute, what are you doing here? Uh and and that took a long time. Uh and gradually, I think we've kind of winnowed out some of the biggest naysayers. And and now I hope the partnership continues. Uh and it's not going to be because of me, it's going to be because of if people find it valuable, they're going to, they're going to make it happen. But the patience that Ed displayed through all of that was was was remarkable. Um and I have to say the trustees were a little bit, yeah, I'm not sure about this, but they began to understand the value. Um because as I said, you have this great entree into the university, but you also have a great institution there as well. And if we think about it more as an organism and less as individual little uh animals, um we can we can start to see that there's that there's something Wyoming can do that probably no other no other system can can can quite accomplish. And I guess I grew up, you know, lead a horse to water and you sit there and watch them. Yeah. But but that's but that's happened. COVID was a
Overcoming Difficult Moments and Changing Minds
SPEAKER_01real interrupter. The main thing I wanted to do coming into office was to diversify Wyoming's economy. And immediately we're in the middle of, you know, everything. Everything shut down and so on. I don't think people of Wyoming understand that. It was tough. There's no question. I think they know that. But we were able to cut more than a third of our budget in terms of current expenditures, but kind of managed through it in a way that didn't reduce services. Now, we couldn't do that on a sustained basis, but we were able to cushion the shock. And that's because of the work that was done by generations before us, setting aside funding, thinking about the future. And if all we're thinking about is what's good for me today, we're going to end up in a wreck. And and I I I think I hope that where you were where I was trying to get more diversification, it's led to let's start thinking about the future more.
SPEAKER_00Was there any issues where you changed your mind over your time as the governor? Where you came and you said this is this is the answer, and you're like, oh, after talking or or being informed or seeing the world in a different way, I've I've completely flipped my my thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I would say growing up on a ranch again, moving cows, your dad says all these cows got to go to that pasture and they don't go. You you change your mind a lot. Um and I I think in with with the legislature, you know, I'd love to take credit for the change of mind that happened to restore the funding. Uh but but I would say that a lot of that came about because I was saying maybe maybe we should be listening to what the criticisms are here. And maybe we should start thinking about what we can do to kind of lean things up. Change my thinking a little bit. And I think out of that ultimately the institutions can be stronger, perhaps the relationship uh with the legislature will be stronger. And I'll tell you two things that are really demonstrable of changing your opinion. One is uh I've been very strong a proponent of let's try to get the university off the state payroll as much as we can, because you know it's that golden rule. Who has the gold makes the rules. And I think that's crippling sometimes for for the university. Um and and I I think that we have a symbiosis there that we should exploit. It's not it's not as black and white. And the second thing, and frankly, you've had a lot to do with that, um, is it's such a huge lift to be a D1 school. Um I've had kids that are D one athletes, it's a huge lift for D one athletes, too. Um but ultimately when you think about how important it is for the reputation of the school, for the pride that we have in our university and our state and our athletes, and what it means to be a cowboy, what it means to be a cowgirl, I've changed my mind. We've got to be D1.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh what is what have you found to be um the most important lesson you learned over this you know, this services, you know, and in the public?
SPEAKER_01I think I think that by and large it's important to to understand why people think the way they do. Um I think I think in a really important lesson too for me was patience. Uh y y you know, there's there's so many things that I wish we could have gotten done. Um you know, we've we've worked really hard on getting a coal port off the West Coast, which would be good for everybody. I mean, it'd be good for our for our Powder River coal miners. It'd be good for Japan because they'd have a reliable source. It'd be good for California because the emissions that would come out of Japan would be less significant than the ones coming out of coal from Australia. Um so so all of those things, it just seems to me like it would make sense to do. Um, it's not going to get done on my watch. I hope it gets done on the next. So, yeah, I think learning learning patience and remembering that there are other people who can get good things
Importance of Family
SPEAKER_01done.
SPEAKER_00One thing I would also highlight is um which we haven't had a chance to talk about, but much gratitude is given to not just you, but also your wife, your kids, your grandkids. It's uh we we both know that being in significant leadership positions without that support structure is people do it. I'm not sure how they do it. What is your how is your family uh uh handled, you know, the the the significant responsibilities and leadership obligations that you have?
SPEAKER_01We're all good Wyoming stock. Uh so I I think uh as I reflect on it, obviously Jenny um you know has I mean she's she's the UW grad that that that adores this institution. I think it's worn on her, um, but but she's always kept her calm and and and and and and her focus on the kids and now the hunger initiative. I think for my kids, um I think it was really hard. And you you know this from leadership positions, everybody's a critic. And it's really hard when someone you love is is attacked, sometimes maligned uh mercilessly and without merit. Uh and and and I think that's been hard, but they've come, they've come through it.
SPEAKER_00Leadership is a it's a contact sport and you can't do it without your your family. And I it's I I know how much I rely on mine, and I I've seen you with yours, and I've just very much um admire it and and recognize the support they've given you. Same here for you.
Advice for President Reeves
SPEAKER_00So we are almost out of time. This is your opportunity now, with the new president sitting here on camera, to tell me what you think I need to do uh to help uh this most indispensable of institutions for our state.
SPEAKER_01Well, I yeah, boy, that's a recipe. You know, you should you should watch out. I know here we go. I I had a clear reason for Ed to say you're coming with me. Um No, I I I think you're doing the right thing. Uh you're you're obviously very visible. Uh you've been a great face for the university. I think um engaging with podcasts, getting out to the communities, these are the the the strengths that uh that I think people expect from the university. They want to know their university, they want to be conversant with it. And and and and I think that's I I think that's key. I I think that conversation about are we supposed to be everything, or are we supposed to be a few things? Should we grow? Should we shrink? Are we a D1? Are we D not D2? I think you're leading those well. Uh I think you should continue to do it. I think it should be a growth uh university. I think um that that what we have to offer uh is is remarkable. Is there some, and this is gonna be really tough, I think, but is there are there adjustments that we should make in in uh in the courses that we offer? Maybe that's worthy of a discussion. Um and I think unfortunately, maybe I'm gonna get a little bit in a danger zone, but I think unfortunately for a while there, that conversation was happening at the trustee level, and it wasn't happening at the university level. It really should be a conversation. Of course, trustees have have an incredibly important role to play in that. Um but but I and you you've spent some time with uh ASU president. Uh this is an incredible group of folks. They care about this institution. Um I've been, you know, I've met with them two or three times over my time, uh, and I've been incredibly impressed with how much they want this university to succeed. And there is that generation, and there is this generation, and I think melding that for for you, I think making sure that you can always stay in that sweet spot is gonna be a challenge. I don't know if there's any particular passion you have. I mean, it's pretty obvious you want to suit up for football. I do.
SPEAKER_00I just wanted to suit football. I I really I look at it as just there's there's you know, the center of gravity at the university is very much the students and the faculty and resourcing them and helping them innovate and maybe sometimes um helping them see things that they don't they don't see, and then helping them accelerate as a group and as a collective is um is how I'm looking at this. And I think we can do that. I think we really can grow the the institution both in terms of the region, inside the state and in the region and nationally. And there's certain things you've hit on already. The research being done in terms of energy, uh, the research that's being done in lots of lots of other places too, in the humanities and in the and public health, and some of the the things that are being thought about when it comes to the crisis of rural health, of course, our ag community. I mean, these are all taking place here at the university, which makes it so exciting. And I think my job is to try to put all that together and then help us figure out ways to help the state and then of course the nation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I I agree. And one of the things that's always worried me in the sort of preliminary conversations about, you know, the university leadership and where we go and so on and so forth, none of which I think you're gonna have to worry about because you're really in a good place. I mean, obviously you need to worry about where the university is gonna go and so on, but we're not contemplating our naval anymore. You know, we're we're actually thinking about leadership. And and and it always I was always a little bit fearful of this notion which you heard from time to time from the legislature and from time to time from um from uh trustees, which was, you know, the the the inmates are running the asylum. Um, you know, the faculty are out uh out of control, or you, you know, the students are out of control or whatever. And and and I I I think that's dangerous. I I mean I think you've got a great faculty here. Um and I I think obviously you've got phenomenal students. And the thing that I really, really do appreciate, Shane, is you're you know trying to keep it all gathered up and going in the right direction. I I'm obviously ag background, so that all makes sense to me. Um but but the the the you know the siloing that can happen is I think something that we've got to really guard against. Uh b because I think you know, we talked a little bit about AI and knowledge and judgment. If we don't have a broad exposure and and we're just sort of focused on one thing, we can we can miss so much. Uh and and I think being able to break down those, I think about the research elements, you know, we've got a really strong high bay program, we've got a really strong school of energy resources, we've got that great zoology department. I I don't know how often they talk to each other, but they should. Johannes Kepler, for example, uh you know, sort of figured out pieces and parts of gravity because of the fact that he loved baking. And, you know, he was like, well, if if the smell is stronger at the source than it is out there, is that the reason our planets move slower at a distance? You know, who who would have known?
SPEAKER_00But but there you are. I I think you're right on this on the silos piece. I don't think that's how we solve problems in today's day and age by looking through a a single lens, a single disciplinary lens or in a myopic way. It has to be interdisciplinary and breaking down those silos and just rubbing uh shoulders with someone who maybe from a very different discipline can result in immense innovation and create you know a creative energy. And I think you're I think you're
Rapid Fire
SPEAKER_00exactly right. All right, Mark. This is where we wrap it up. Before we do, I like to do a uh a rapid fire.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so no briefing books. You don't have a veto pen. You can't do anything, you just have to answer. All right, here you go. It's really, really hard. Ready? And you just have to answer first thing off your head. The Wyoming high school football team you root for, go. That's the bison, Buffalo bison. Oh, okay. You came in quick on that as the governor. I wasn't very political at all. Favorite place in Wyoming? Um, Casey. Best Wyoming road trip. I would say Red Desert. What is your favorite uh Division I sport at the University of Wyoming? Cowboy or cowgirl? Uh favorite. Favorite? One of the 17.
SPEAKER_01Love football, but I also love soccer. So I think women's soccer.
SPEAKER_00They're having a great, they're having a great opening of the season so far. Uh, ranching or politics?
SPEAKER_01Uh ranching.
SPEAKER_00Your background doesn't seem to indicate that. One Wyoming value that we should never lose. Independence. Well, what's one thing Wyoming needs more of? Free thinking. It's your favorite book.
SPEAKER_01Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America.
SPEAKER_00Great one.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's one thing Wyoming needs less of, by the way. Uh, national politics affecting the way we do things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh are you a morning person or an evening person?
SPEAKER_01Morning.
SPEAKER_00Finally, if General Patton were the governor, what do you think he'd tell us?
SPEAKER_01Lead follower, get follower. Yeah.
Governor Gordon's Next Chapter
SPEAKER_00So as you as you conclude your second term, what is next for for you and for your family?
SPEAKER_01Well, I have a ranch with cows, and I have grandkids, and they're at the age where they need to know more about those cows.
Thank You and a Message from the Governor
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for your service to the great state of Wyoming. And as you head into your next chapter, I hope you'll come back and visit us.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, President Reeves and Shane. It has been a great conversation. To the people of Wyoming, this is your institution. Be engaged. This is a president who wants to hear from you. This is a great institution with a great future. Thank you again.
Closing Remarks & Go Pokes!
SPEAKER_00To everyone listening, thank you for joining us for another episode of UWYO Spotlight. Our goal with this podcast is to introduce you to the people, ideas, discoveries, and opportunities that are shaping the University of Wyoming and the state we serve. Thanks for listening, and as always, Go Pokes.
SPEAKER_01Go Pokes.